2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by Jarnooo on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 5:56

00521, I think you'll find that the helicopter could fly and that they decided to take the ambulance over the helicopter by choice, with the patients health in mind. That is what I have read, although I could be wrong.

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by 00521 on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 8:58

Jarnooo wrote:00521, I think you'll find that the helicopter could fly and that they decided to take the ambulance over the helicopter by choice, with the patients health in mind. That is what I have read, although I could be wrong.

Really?

Perhaps, the nature of the impact wound is such that altitude change might have increased brain hemorrhaging?

That would certainly make more sense.



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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by RaySinKa on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 9:05

In the prevailing weather conditions, I doubt that it would have been a smooth flight and in the turbulence it would have been harder for the medical crew to administer aid.

An ambulance can choose its speed and is subjected to "up and down" jerks.


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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by 00521 on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 9:10

RaySinKa wrote:In the prevailing weather conditions, I doubt that it would have been a smooth flight and in the turbulence it would have been harder for the medical crew to administer aid.

An ambulance can choose its speed and is subjected to "up and down" jerks.


Yes, Absolutely

Hers's a medical abstract regarding same.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0026216



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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by RaySinKa on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 9:17

00521 wrote:

"...The entire thing should be chalked up to the organizers not running the race earlier, especially since the medical helicopter was prevented from flying by the weather, and you cannot officially run an F-1 race without medi-vac being available and flyable..."

Cordial Best,

00521



During the BBC pre-race show it was mentioned that the organisers could/would not move the race forward because of fears for public safety with an earlier start time. Apparently many of the race tickets include their train ticket from Tokyo booked on a set train with allocated seating. There was a fear that chaos might ensue with fans fighting to get to the circuit.

Also would it have made any difference? Either the start would have been delayed because of the bad conditions at the start time or the race would have raced into deteriorating weather.

The truth accidents happen in racing, usually everything done is to minimise them but retrospectively every man and his dog has a better plan.

Much is made of the race continuing in the second bout of poor weather, but drivers were still making stops to change to a new set of Inters, why weren't they or the team management calling for full wets?

Why? Because they were racing to win!

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by 00521 on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 9:56

RaySinKa wrote:
00521 wrote:

"...The entire thing should be chalked up to the organizers not running the race earlier, especially since the medical helicopter was prevented from flying by the weather, and you cannot officially run an F-1 race without medi-vac being available and flyable..."

Cordial Best,

00521



During the BBC pre-race show it was mentioned that the organisers could/would not move the race forward because of fears for public safety with an earlier start time.  Apparently many of the race tickets include their train ticket from Tokyo booked on a set train with allocated seating. There was a fear that chaos might ensue with fans fighting to get to the circuit.

Also would it have made any difference?  Either the start would have been delayed because of the bad conditions at the start time or the race would have raced into deteriorating weather.

The truth accidents happen in racing, usually everything done is to minimise them but retrospectively every man and his dog has a better plan.

Much is made of the race continuing in the second bout of poor weather, but drivers were still making stops to change to a new set of Inters, why weren't they or the team management calling for full wets?

Why?  Because they were racing to win!


Hi Ray,

Yes, as always, you are also looking at the DEEPER issues.

I agree that the mass confusion (of a Saturday Race) would have really impacted many people, (although this could have been somewhat offset by a series of Radio / TV announcements), however public safety might have been impacted on a greater scale looking at the storm that was on its way and the calm citizen focus that is needed for that, alone.

That very fact... that there was a typhoon on the way, being in and of itself emphasized as "major enough" to force the entire Japanese GP to a different start date / time (!!!), would have increased public anxiety levels, somewhat taxed by the very nature of the expected storm, something quite normal in that part of the Pacific.

Therefore... do nothing.

All, sadly, makes sense. 20/20 hindsight is a VERY tough call, indeed.

On the other hand, had the GP been simply postponed till the end of season, (force majeure), everyone would have taken a financial hit, but it would have been far better than what has occurred.



Warm Regards,

00521





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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by 00521 on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 10:25

Hopefully, there will now be an FIA rules change:

NO more tractors on course in the future, unless there is a full course safety car yellow.


http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Questions-being-asked-after-Bianchi-crash,82462.html



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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by Zag on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 10:42

There is only one way that things will change and that is if someone drops a crane on Bernies head...

The guy only thinks of money and to run the race earlier would have affected advertising revenues which
is not something he would ever consider...

I know it is easy to dismiss the crap that comes out of this guys mouth as him just being a little eccentric but
in reality he is a greedy, uncaring little creep....

Taking Bianchi to hospital in a crappy little ambulance beggars belief....   If the drivers had known the helicopter
would have been unable to fly then I hope they would have refused to race..

Bringing such a truck onto the track apron is crazy and double waved yellows doesn't cut it...  it would have been better
just to leave Sutils car where is was..  I know what I would rather hit!!

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by KoKiNa on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 16:57

00521 wrote:Hopefully, there will now be an FIA rules change:

NO more tractors on course in the future, unless there is a full course safety car yellow.


Really? We've seen lots of times those cranes invading the track surroundings and fear something catastrophic may happen if a car runs out of the track and crash it (specially under raining conditions). Does it really need to be someone seriously injured for the FIA staff to take action to stop that in time?. Someone should get that crane over his head Sad
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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by zing on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 18:17

***A warning*** I have just seen a video showing the full impact ... it is terrifying and ghastly .... Poor Jules ... shocking.
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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by Ferrari on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 18:28

I have seen a video now that made me feel sick... This was the most horrifying crash I've seen. The tractor went at least one meter in the air and may also land on Jules on the way down. It's the helmet and air intake that crash into the tractor.

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by 00521 on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 18:43

zing wrote:***A warning*** I have just seen a video showing the full impact ... it is terrifying and ghastly ....  Poor Jules ...  shocking.    

Zing,

Thank You, for the heads up.

I shall not watch it.

We cannot even begin to fathom the g-forces when he came to a sudden stop...  resultant brain damage as it was ripped from the interior of the skull and all that energy momentum went through the gray matter... were it not for the the engine taking initial energy, and the advanced safety cell,  the secure roll hoop, and finally and the Hans, Bianchi would have died instantly from a basal skull fracture

Now the question of course is complete recovery, not just survival, and a good quality of life, can he recover in part, or full, will there be paralysis, memory, motor, vision, speech defects... etc., etc., etc.???

To have anyone nearly decapitated because of track officials' / FIA stupidity, is far beyond all reasonable, human, comprehension.

If this accident does not wake up FOM and FIA, to make F-1 safer... then nothing will.


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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by zing on Mon 6 Oct 2014 - 20:12

The front of the car passes underneath of the rear of the tractor crane - it's a miracle he was not decapitated.. indeed ...... omg.
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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by esterence on Tue 7 Oct 2014 - 11:06

I have watched the video a few times and on super slow-mo.

It looks like he didn't crash head on parallel to the tractor, but a little off the tractor which meant it was only at the most right of the rear of the tractor that his helmet came into contact with it, which should hopefully be a lifesaver. Otherwise his head would be decapitated/crushed if it was exactly parallel and underneath to the tractor.

It was very unfortunate, not sure why there are blames everywhere.
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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by MONSTAR on Tue 7 Oct 2014 - 12:01

Just seen the video and it's amazing that he didn't die on impact. Also a miracle none of the marshals weren't hurt or didn't die.

Hope he gets a full recovery how ever long it takes.

In another note I wonder if bianchi slowed down when he lost it because he had already gone past the crash site the lap earlier.

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by Jarnooo on Tue 7 Oct 2014 - 13:03

MONSTAR wrote:Just seen the video and it's amazing that  he didn't die on impact. Also a miracle none of the marshals weren't  hurt or didn't  die.

Hope he gets a full recovery how ever long it takes.

In another  note I wonder if bianchi slowed down when he lost it because he had already gone past the crash site the lap earlier.

To be honest, judging by how fast he hit the tractor, it doesn't look like he slowed down much for the double waved yellows (doesn't seem like the drivers do these days).

Also, from the pictures we have seen, the helmet looked like it held up pretty well, although we only saw the side of it that didn't make the impact.

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by esterence on Tue 7 Oct 2014 - 16:26

Thinking about it, the much maligned HANS might have protected his neck well enough
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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by Panda on Tue 7 Oct 2014 - 23:21

For those who have seen the video, for some reason the marshal is weaving the green flag just there, besides the tractor. When do you as a driver start to accelerate, as soon as you see green flag or after you pass the green flag? The telemetry and the on-board should clarify this

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by 00521 on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 4:58

Panda wrote:For those who have seen the video, for some reason the marshal is weaving the green flag just there, besides the tractor. When do you as a driver start to accelerate, as soon as you see green flag or after you pass the green flag? The telemetry and the on-board should clarify this

Exactly.

For even though the regulations imply that a flag marshal for the next section can be stationed there, it seems rather strange, a lack of common sense and an invitation to disaster.

A driver might see the Green flag and might be instinctively inclined to add throttle at the very point of visual contact, yet while still in a hazardous yellow area.

To find a flag man there, especially at the exit to 130R, (a notorious compound turn in any weather condition, but particularly in the wet), seems like poor race management on behalf of the officials.

They may have done it like this for decades, but surely there MUST be a better spot.


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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by esterence on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 9:02

I think it makes perfect sense. The whole dunlop curve is quite long, so by the time you see the green flags there at the next station and then you accelerate away it wouldn't have caused him to crash there, he must be already very fast before that.
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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by Jarnooo on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 11:27

The marshal waving the green flag is not in the wrong. The green flag is for the section of track from the flag and then on and his post was further down the track from the accident. The driver's know this well. Just like how a speed limit sign on the road is for that point on, not from where you see it.

Like I said earlier, double waved yellows mean slow down and be prepared to stop. No drivers do that these days. How many drivers could have stopped in reasonable time if it were necessary? None? Sure they slow down to that delta sector time or whatever, but the FIA need to change the rule, and ensure that drivers drastically reduce their speed in double waved yellow sections of the track, because if it's not a driver at risk, then it's certainly a marshal or four.

And yes, I understand the track was very wet and he quite possibly aquaplaned, but at the same time, this is an issue I've had with F1 in the recent past and this incident makes it very relevant. In any situations recently with double waved yellows, how many drivers could have actually stopped in a reasonable time?

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by 00521 on Wed 8 Oct 2014 - 15:52

Esterence & Jarnoo,

Makes sense. Thanx for the explanation, really learned something about this incident.

There MUST be a better way than Double Yellows, in the torrential wet. Safety Car and Full Course Yellow seems far better.

Of course, there is the OTHER, more simple, alternative, which was to change the time of the race, and we've already discussed the multiple Pros and Cons.

Funny, I read somewhere that the ambulance took off with Bianchi to the hospital, THEN the helicopter supposedly took off empty, looking for a safer area from which to fly?

Immediate speculation that they thought he might have to be moved  a second time... perhaps to a BIGGER and better hospital... in Tokyo?

Can anyone confirm:
-Empty helicopter flight and... WHY?
-Was the hospital so close that ambulance was faster?
-Weather so bad locally at the hospital landing sight... that chopper could not fly to the hospital ?
-Initial injuries feared not survivable by air flight (brain swelling)?

Frankly, the entire incident seems resultant of a series of errors stemming from:

-The time the race was started
-Not shortening the race in the appalling conditions, when the drivers would be more exhausted than usual
-The tractor dispatched under local yellow
-Not Red Flagging immediately on Lap 44 (and absurdly letting the race go 3 more laps).
-Not flying Bianchi off in the available chopper...


Again, lets pray for his total recovery.

Of course, these are all vastly different accidents, but if Haakinnen, Barrichello and Massa could comeback from severe head trauma, hopefully Bianchi can also.

Modern medicine can be miraculous, but it depends upon many factors.


Cordial Best,

00521











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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by Rus-Evo on Fri 10 Oct 2014 - 22:34

Is it technically feasible to increase ride height by further increasing wet tyre diameter and also ride height by other means during wet conditions? This would reduce aquaplaning.

Also what about a "wet DRS" that increases flap settings at a touch of a button when wets are on?
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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by 00521 on Fri 10 Oct 2014 - 22:49

Rus-Evo wrote:Is it technically feasible to increase ride height by further increasing wet tyre diameter and also ride height by other means during wet conditions?  This would reduce aquaplaning.

Also what about a "wet DRS" that increases flap settings at a touch of a button when wets are on?

Hi Rus,

No it is not technically feasible as even a slight ride height change might have DRASTIC effect upon the complex under-car airflow, making the car looser...  and be extremely dangerous and risky (IMHO) in the wet.  

Also, not really sure how this would decrease aquaplaning / hydroplaning, (unless you are thinking of reducing downforce to quite an extent) as that is a direct function of mechanical grip, dry tire contact patch and how well the tire's grooves, channels, tread blocks, and sipes scoot standing water out from same contact patch... but wouldn't you WANT more downforce in the wet?

Internet wrote:

The grooves and channels cut into the tire serve to evacuate deep water quickly out from under the tread, but even after most of the water has been evacuated, a very thin and very slick layer of water will still remain. As the tire tread flexes in contact with the pavement, the sipes expand, forming an area of lower air pressure inside the siping cuts, which then sucks that last tiny bit of water into the sipes providing a firm contact between the tire tread and the road. These are generally called rain sipes.

The second would require tire sensors and probably would be probably called an illegal movable device.

Probably better for us to look at changing the way the races are officiated / marshaled...

All these are Intriguing questions, indeed ... BTW.

Cool

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Re: 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX

Post by RaySinKa on Sun 12 Oct 2014 - 12:12

00521 said;

"...but wouldn't you WANT more downforce in the wet?..."

Made me think, if Bianchi slowed a lot approaching the waved double yellows could a large loss of downforce, that led to him aquaplaning off to the accident?

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