Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:50 pm

F1 forever wrote:Jarnooo, there's no question that Red Bull screwed themselves here in this specific case, in many ways.

But I don't like the idea that the engine manufacturers only give their engines to uncompetitive teams. Let's say Renault was forced to pull out of the sport for whatever reason (maybe some software problems on millions of their road cars, cough, cough) - Red Bull would be in the same situation. They'd still have no engine simply because their team is too good to get one.

There was a time when the engine used by the teams didn't really matter (as they all delivered roughly the same performance). And now it flipped to the other extreme, with the engine manufacturers calling all the shots, with no alternatives. No independent engine supplier, nothing. So the better your team (potentially) is, the lower your chances to even be in F1? Sounds screwy to me, considering the fact that the vast majority of teams don't manufacture their own engines.


Looks like Ecclestone agrees with my assessment:

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/13868551/bernie-ecclestone-says-f1-needs-cosworth-engine-again
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by Erwee on Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:48 pm

F1 forever wrote:
F1 forever wrote:Jarnooo, there's no question that Red Bull screwed themselves here in this specific case, in many ways.

But I don't like the idea that the engine manufacturers only give their engines to uncompetitive teams. Let's say Renault was forced to pull out of the sport for whatever reason (maybe some software problems on millions of their road cars, cough, cough) - Red Bull would be in the same situation. They'd still have no engine simply because their team is too good to get one.

There was a time when the engine used by the teams didn't really matter (as they all delivered roughly the same performance). And now it flipped to the other extreme, with the engine manufacturers calling all the shots, with no alternatives. No independent engine supplier, nothing. So the better your team (potentially) is, the lower your chances to even be in F1? Sounds screwy to me, considering the fact that the vast majority of teams don't manufacture their own engines.


Looks like Ecclestone agrees with my assessment:

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/13868551/bernie-ecclestone-says-f1-needs-cosworth-engine-again
Sounds about right... Wink

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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:31 pm

Some interesting hints about RedBull potentially using a non-hybrid engine from an outside manufacturer (have only seen that on a German site so far). Even though those hints come from Newey and Ecclestone, I highly doubt the other engine manufacturers would allow that...and could that even be realized in such a short time?
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by Jarnooo on Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:29 am

Well Toro Rosso got away with a rev limited V10 in 2006 so I don't see why not. I mean, obviously it's stupid and shouldn't be allowed, but Bernie wants to keep Red Bull so he'll allow it.

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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:44 pm

I think the FIA would have to allow it (and according to Newey, they've been opposed to it so far). What would make this very complicated (I'd think) are the vast differences between say the Mercedes and the Honda engine. What's the reference point then? And how comparable would it be in other regards (fuel efficiency etc.).
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:57 pm

Well the alternative is off the table now:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121347

Lots of good decisions there, getting rid of almost all development restrictions - but this still leaves RedBull without an engine.

I wonder what the point of keeping the token system is if you can pretty much develop anything anytime now. Ferrari has demonstrated (and will continue to demonstrate) what you can do with 32 tokens. Mercedes already this season had moren tokens than they had any sensible use for.

Renault and Honda won't have any excuses other than their own incompetence. Wink
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:08 am

Bernie Ecclestone says Red Bull's Formula 1 future is now "sorted"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121340

PopCorn
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by Erwee on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:50 am

F1 forever wrote:Bernie Ecclestone says Red Bull's Formula 1 future is now "sorted"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121340

PopCorn

That's a lot of leaps !
I don't know what kind of game RB's playing, but still curious and maybe dangerous...

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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:41 pm

Erwee wrote:
F1 forever wrote:Bernie Ecclestone says Red Bull's Formula 1 future is now "sorted"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121340

PopCorn

That's a lot of leaps !
I don't know what kind of game RB's playing, but still curious and maybe dangerous...

I think it's becoming more and more clear what all this is really about: Mateschitz is not really in a position to pull the plug. He may be a motorsports fan and a billionaire, but first and foremost, he's a businessman. Breaking the multi-year commitments with Bernie is going to cost a fortune. Dealing with 1000+ employees at Red Bull and Toro Rosso is going to cost a fortune. The public image is suffering immensely. Quitting the sport like this would be a disaster on all fronts.

Sure, they'd prefer fighting for the title, but staying in the sport must be the goal no matter how competitive the engine is (or isn't).

I think they tried their utmost to manoeuvre themselves into a position where they'd be perceived as a victim of circumstances. No one is buying their story though, and Bernie won't let them get away with that.
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:49 pm

F1 forever wrote:More and more talk about three-car-teams surfacing...does anyone know how that would actually work? I guess only some teams would field three cars?

I guess I'm gonna answer my own question here:

F1 rules dictate that should the grid fall below 18 cars then Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren would step into the breach to supply a third car.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121356
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:21 pm

So the RedBull saga is going to come to an end, most likely this weekend. Phew, I just got tired of it. The resolution should be really, really boring.
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:44 pm

Bernie Ecclestone pushing for cheap engine alternative

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/13964178/bernie-ecclestone-pushing-cheap-engine-alternative

I thought this was interesting - I guess the engine manufacturers don't have total control quite yet, at least in the long term:

"It depends what their veto rights are. It's a bit complicated actually," he said. "On the Strategy Group the thing is that there are six votes for the teams, six votes for the FIA and six votes for the commercial rights holder. If by chance the FIA and the commercial rights holder agree then it won't make a lot of difference what the teams think."

Glad to hear it! But that's for 2017.
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:04 am

Someone should remind the great Mateschitz that his deadline just passed. He's a man of principle, they say. lol
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

F1 forever wrote:I like this idea for Red Bull: Get the offered 2015 Ferrari engines for Toro Rosso, quit with RBR, and then buy Manor! Smile

Dang it! They thought of that:

Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport said Mercedes put a clause in the engine deal allowing it to be terminated in the event that Manor is sold to a new owner.
The report, adding that there is more than one interested buyer on the horizon, explained that the clause would stop Red Bull from simply snapping up Manor and securing the Mercedes engine deal it really wants.
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Wolff-says-Manor-resignations-a-blow,97089.html

fight3
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:45 am

F1 forever wrote:Someone should remind the great Mateschitz that his deadline just passed. He's a man of principle, they say. lol


mrgreen mrgreen mrgreen

Mateschitz announces new deadline for crisis end

mrgreen mrgreen mrgreen

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Mateschitz-announces-new-deadline-for-crisis-end,97264.html

Is that really how deadlines are supposed to work though? LolRoll

Some interesting tidbits there...
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by Jarnooo on Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:57 pm

The newest rumour is Renault could give Red Bull un-branded engines. Helps them get on the grid whilst not allowing them to trash Renault's name I guess.

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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:29 pm

Jarnooo wrote:The newest rumour is Renault could give Red Bull un-branded engines.  Helps them get on the grid whilst not allowing them to trash Renault's name I guess.

"Whose engines are you using now?"

"We just whipped them up ourselves in a couple of hours... STILL BETTER THAN RENAULT'S CRAP!!!" demon2
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:57 am

Ok, now I give up!

Ferrari re-opens door to working with Red Bull

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Ferrari-re-opens-door-to-working-with-Red-Bull,97382.html

I have no idea what that's supposed to be about.
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:19 am

Red Bull secures engine deal for 2016

"We've entered the world championship, we've signed a contract for an engine, but I can't tell you what it'll be or called at the moment," he said. "We're announcing different partners - and we've some great partners to be announced in the week ahead - so yes we'll be there unless something extremely untoward happens."

"It's an engine that will hopefully improve during the course of the year, so it's going to be a tough start to the season for us but we're confident we'll make strides."

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/14234392/red-bull-secures-engine-deal-2016

Not a surprise anymore but...I guess their gamble didn't pay off. On the one hand I'm happy about the fact they didn't get away with their crap, on the other hand it's a shame for the sport that RedBull won't be competitive next season, either. With a 2015 engine from either Mercedes or Ferrari, there'd have been some hope.
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by Jarnooo on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:00 am

I know it's unlikely, but what if Renault drastically improve their engine for 2016?

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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:11 pm

Jarnooo wrote:I know it's unlikely, but what if Renault drastically improve their engine for 2016?

It's what I'd normally assume, too, but a while ago I read an interview with the head of F1 engine development at Renault, and he basically explained that they just don't understand how to improve the engine, since they don't even understand what the problem is. They don't know which direction to take, which is why Ghosn is so reluctant to sink more money into the project.

I tried to google it, but unfortunately couldn't find it anymore. But it's clear Renault's situation is very different from Ferrari's (before this season) and Honda's now. I fully expect Honda to come up with a decent engine, not quite on the level of Mercedes or Ferrari, but good enough to qualify for "drastically improved".
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:37 pm

Ehe...what?

"Wait and see what it (Red Bull’s 2016 engine) is called," Red Bull boss Christian Horner said late on Sunday in Abu Dhabi.

"It will be something quite good. I don’t think (McLaren-Honda supremo) Ron Dennis will be very happy, but he hasn’t been very happy recently," Horner told the BBC.

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Dennis-won-t-be-happy-with-Red-Bull-engine-Horner,98371.html

Horner just messing with everybody?
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:01 pm

Ahhhh, I get it, Nissan branding! Exclamation Question
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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by Jarnooo on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:21 pm

TAG sold its McLaren shares, so rumour is it will be badged a TAG engine.

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Re: Volkswagen close to buying Red Bull F1 team???

Post by F1 forever on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:29 pm

Jarnooo wrote:TAG sold its McLaren shares, so rumour is it will be badged a TAG engine.

...after falling out with Ron Dennis! Dennis must be the worst team boss in the history of F1. How is he still around? That guy is a walking disaster on all fronts.

So the next Red Bull will be powered by a hybrid watch? Not surprising then that they're expecting a difficult start to the season... Very Happy

Official announcement will come tomorrow (according to TAG Heuer).
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