FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by Zag on Mon 16 May - 20:08:28

JPS - Nothing wrong with LH's start.. Nico had the advantage of slip-streaming him and LH not
aggressively shutting the door on him.

I think with Lewis's troubles in the last few races his main thought was to stay out of trouble at
the begging and he would take him later, only to have Nico present an opportunity a few corners later...

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Mon 16 May - 22:23:19

Nico made a mistake, as his team manager has confirmed, and violated the sporting regulations.

Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full
width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting
to pass is alongside his.
Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track
without justifiable reason.

For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is
alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a ‘significant portion’.



Lewis made a decisive move that any racing driver has to make given the circumstances (as Davidson and others explained) - especially on a track like Barcelona where another opportunity to overtake will most likely never come, as he surely wouldn't have the 2.4 secs pace advantage required later on.
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by JPS4ever on Mon 16 May - 22:45:13

F1 forever wrote:Nico made a mistake, as his team manager has confirmed, and violated the sporting regulations.

Lewis made a decisive move that any racing driver has to make given the circumstances (as Davidson and others explained) - especially on a track like Barcelona where another opportunity to overtake will most likely never come, as he surely wouldn't have the 2.4 secs pace advantage required later on.

Nico also made a decisive move that any racing driver has to make given the circumstances. Lewis was not along side when Nico started the move. However he was along side when the move was finished as your picture illustrates. That's why it was deemed a racing incident by the stewards.

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Mon 16 May - 22:47:29

JPS, the rule doesn't say anything like what you suggest. I posted it above. Just read it.

Also, the picture was taken before Nico had finished his move (watch the video I posted).

The rule is designed to prevent accidents like this from happening, not give the lead driver the right to push opponents off the track.
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by JPS4ever on Tue 17 May - 1:24:25


Here Nico moves over to cover the inside and you can see Hamilton is still behind.


A 1/4 of a second later Lewis gets his nose in but already has a wheel on the white line.


Another 1/4 and Nico completes his move and Lewis is forced onto the grass.

It's pretty obvious to me that Lewis was overly optimistic sticking his nose into an ever shrinking gap like that.  Nico, although much slower, had the right to shut the door.  Hamilton was behind him when he did it, or at least when he initiated it.  I know you Brit Hamilton fanatics will see it differently though.  👅

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by 00521 on Tue 17 May - 1:53:22

JPS4ever wrote:Yes, but it's still one of the most beautiful liveries ever Wink

Absolutely, and those few years were truly incredible and oft marvelous days at Lotus!

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 1:54:19

JPS, it doesn't matter when he "initiated" the move. Otherwise, Rosberg could "initiate" his move being on the far left with a huge gap on the right, and simply drive any driver off the track at will just because he "initiated" his move at some arbitrary moment. That's not what the rule says.

During Rosberg's move, a significant portion of Lewis' car as defined by the rules was alongside his car. The evidence has been posted both in video as well as picture form.
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by 00521 on Tue 17 May - 1:59:46

JPS4ever wrote:
Here Nico moves over to cover the inside and you can see Hamilton is still behind.


A 1/4 of a second later Lewis gets his nose in but already has a wheel on the white line.


Another 1/4 and Nico completes his move and Lewis is forced onto the grass.

It's pretty obvious to me that Lewis was overly optimistic sticking his nose into an ever shrinking gap like that.  Nico, although much slower, had the right to shut the door.  Hamilton was behind him when he did it, or at least when he initiated it.  I know you Brit Hamilton fanatics will see it differently though.  👅

Hmmmnnn...

Still shots are nice... however, not quite what the video shows.

There was a slight feint by Nico, then a COMPLETE door closing, it was far less than a 1/4 second.

THAT constituted the double move. Remember, Hamilton feinted to the left FIRST at the top of the chute... In addition, if you go back that very same split second, there was an entire car width to the R of Hamilton's car before the grass.

Rosberg absolutely pushed Hamilton off on purpose. He just never though that it would come back to him.

Its all on the video. I watched it a few times...  

Anyway.

Onto the NEXT race.


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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by JPS4ever on Tue 17 May - 2:22:36

Sorry F1 forever but you can't shut the door and then swerve back a tenth later when you realize the other guy's trying to push through anyway. That's a good way to put yourself off. Nico made the move when Lewis was behind.

Anyway, it was so close and happened so fast. Plus the huge speed difference magnified everything. That's why it was decided neither should get penalized. I completely agree with that.

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 2:57:45

JPS4ever wrote:Sorry F1 forever but you can't shut the door and then swerve back a tenth later when you realize the other guy's trying to push through anyway.

You have to either be quicker to close the door (which Nico wasn't due to a lack of speed/late reaction), or leave space (which Nico didn't either), according to the rule which was clarified after this incident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAJ9ysCD7nI

Lewis got where he needed to be in time, Rosberg did not.





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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by 240ZR on Tue 17 May - 4:29:06

Yeah, Nico has a habit of doing this, he did it to Lewis at Bahrain 2012... same same!!

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 13:09:13

Interesting... so Renault's update could come as soon as Monaco, and is expected to give a .450s gain per lap on average. Not enough to challenge Mercedes, but Ferrari?


I believe it when I see it, but I think it's pretty clear that the WDC and WCC are pretty much decided in Mercedes favor already. Personally, I had hoped for much more of a challenge from Ferrari... it's a shame.
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 13:15:29

As usual, Honda's/McL's claims look outlandish:

"By studying the data closely, we see that we are now somewhere between Mercedes and Ferrari with the power," he told Speed Week.

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Honda-between-Mercedes-and-Ferrari-in-power,103766.html

Combine that with Alonso's claim of chassis greatness, and the question is why they're 2 secs behind the Mercs in Barcelona then? With Button getting lapped?
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by RaySinKa on Tue 17 May - 13:35:37

A couple of quotes;

Lewis Hamilton should be disciplined by Mercedes for the accident that wiped out him and team-mate Nico Rosberg at the Spanish Grand Prix, according to Sir Jackie Stewart, who blames the triple world champion for the crash.

While Mercedes non-executive chairman Niki Lauda says Hamilton "took the blame" for the incident.

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 13:48:26

RaySinKa wrote:Mercedes non-executive chairman Niki Lauda says Hamilton "took the blame" for the incident.

Inaccurate. Lewis, just like Nico, apologized to the team (including Lauda) for not bringing home any points. Neither "took the blame" for the accident.

Wolff called Lauda's opinion premature and uninformed  - which it had to be considering when he shared it. According to Wolff, taking all the datapoints into account, Lewis maneuver was the one "he should have made", considering the circumstances, even though he hated the outcome of the crash.

It was good to see that at least Villeneuve - unlike 76yo Stewart - knows the current F1 regulations as cited by me:

"Il est arrivé avec tellement de vitesse et Rosberg lui avait fait de la place à l’intérieur. Il l’a bloqué trop tard. Ce geste est complètement illégal et dangereux. Physiquement, c’est la faute de Rosberg à 100 %," déclare le champion du monde 1997.

"Lui fermer la porte alors que Hamilton était déjà rendu à sa droite est complètement inacceptable. Quand il a été tassé, il avait deux roues dans l’herbe, il ne pouvait plus contrôler sa voiture. Hamilton a eu de la chance, car sa monoplace aurait pu partir en tonneaux."
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by Jarnooo on Tue 17 May - 14:11:00

Racing incident anyone?

Great race, although I'm kind of sour that Ricciardo ended up on the slower strategy. Well driven by Max who didn't put a foot wrong but I do wish Kimi got close enough to stick one up the inside. What was I doing at 18?

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 14:44:55

Jarnooo, it was determined to be a racing incident after the race, thus no penalties.

Doesn't mean that what happened didn't happen, and it's nice to have so much evidence these days for these things!
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by Zag on Tue 17 May - 16:24:32

Stewart has never liked Lewis... and was well put out when LH overtook his record.. so
I expect nothing less from him..

Cant understand Lauda's conclusion...  he has always championed Lewis so to take this
point of view, when its pretty obvious who was (mostly) to blame is strange...

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by JPS4ever on Tue 17 May - 17:10:46

Zag wrote:Cant understand Lauda's conclusion...  he has always championed Lewis so to take this
point of view, when its pretty obvious who was (mostly) to blame is strange...

cat

Unless he happens to be correct of course Laughing

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 17:55:12

Zag wrote:Stewart has never liked Lewis... and was well put out when LH overtook his record.. so
I expect nothing less from him..

I thought the conclusion on this board had been for many years that he's a bit on the senile side. But yeah, he's also on record saying he wants Nico to be champion this season. He also proposed that Mercedes should leave the sport because of their success. And... and... and.

Honestly, I don't really care which 100 yo driver has some opinion, unless he backs it up using today's sporting regulations. Which he failed to do. Just because he raced 43 years ago in machinery of that time doesn't make his opinion about today's racing worth anything - unless he makes a good point using today's rules.  

Zag wrote:Cant understand Lauda's conclusion...  he has always championed Lewis so to take this
point of view, when its pretty obvious who was (mostly) to blame is strange...

Not so strange when you know him a little better. I see him every race on German TV. In this case, his reaction came directly after the incident - before he was aware of the details, before he had seen a detailed replay, and he was (naturally) unaware of the main reason for Lewis' move. It was mainly an emotional reaction to seeing both Mercedes out of the race - he was furious, but didn't have a point other than blaming Lewis for "not waiting" until later in the race to overtake. Which makes no sense given the characteristics of Barcelona. Nico himself contradicted Lauda in that regard.

Since then, he's really been reaching, stubbornly holding to his position (which is what he usually does in front of the camera) - which is why I appreciated Wolff setting the record straight from the teams' point of view. Lauda's opinion was premature, uninformed and purely emotional - just don't expect him to admit that he jumped the gun on this one.

He should have taken more time before jumping to his conclusion, and it's clear that Mercedes wasn't too happy about it. But that's the conflict that happens when he's wearing two caps at the same time - his broadcasting cap and his Mercedes cap. On the one hand, the broadcasting station wanted an immediate reaction. On the other hand, he didn't have the facts at the time, yet still condemned his own driver. It's tricky, and sooner or later, something like this had to happen...


Last edited by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 18:30:13; edited 1 time in total
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by 00521 on Tue 17 May - 18:24:29

Yes,

IMHO, Jackie Stewart was only WDC multiple times only because Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Bruce McLaren, Lorenzo Bandini, Joachim Rindt and a few others got killed off or injured in very rapid succession while he was on his way to the top.

He last race 43 years ago and was pretty much a weak sister even then, Stewart never took any tiny chances, whatsoever. Therefore, Last Man standing.

Now, Stirling Moss, Dan Gurney, Mike Spence, Pedro Rodriguez, Francois Cevert, Ronnie Peterson, Mario Andretti, or John Surtees... Chris Amon, Denny Hulme, Jack Brabham... and a bunch of others, had big balls, but that's another story.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/formula-one/burning-questions-what-happens-in-the-wake-of-the-rosberg-hamilton-spanish-gp-crash/news-story/a309f9cf5bd87cf38916b0691a75a5b3


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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by F1 forever on Tue 17 May - 19:13:15

Coulthard backing me up:

Niki Lauda held up Lewis Hamilton as the one to blame and that is the soundbite people will hang on to. Yet as much as I respect Niki’s opinion, and his right to shoot from the hip, I cannot agree with him. [...]

It is easy to apportion slightly more blame to Lewis because he’s an attacking car, but the rules state if you have a “significant portion” alongside, then you can’t crowd someone off the race track. Lewis did have his front wing alongside. We can see that clearly. Of course Nico can’t, with those tiny little mirrors. This is why I think the stewards got it right. But fundamentally, all this was put in motion by Nico being in the wrong engine mode.

As for Rosberg not being able to see Lewis with his mirrors, that is, according Rosberg himself, not accurate in this case. He claimed to have been aware of where Lewis was the whole time. And so he did deliberately crowd him off the track, violating the sporting regulations in a number of ways.

Coulthard also explains why the two "oldies" reacted in the way they did:

The reality is that the rules of engagement are different from Niki’s days of racing, and different from mine. Back when Sir Stirling Moss was racing, they avoided touching wheels at all costs as they would be ejected from the car. In Niki’s they had they effectively had the fuel wrapped around their body. Now it’s different. The drivers are further from risk, so they will have a different way of positioning their car and moving around. It is human nature.

Coulthard, Villeneuve, Davidson, Hill, Chandhok, Surer... they all presented a much more relevant point of view.
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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by Dave on Wed 18 May - 6:34:35

Yes if Graham Hill hadn't died two years after Jackie Stewart retied, he might have prevented him from becoming champion... :?

00521 wrote:Yes,

IMHO, Jackie Stewart was only WDC multiple times only because Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Bruce McLaren, Lorenzo Bandini, Joachim Rindt and a few others got killed off or injured in very rapid succession while he was on his way to the top.


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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by JPS4ever on Wed 18 May - 17:05:57

Gary Anderson wrote:I agree with Niki Lauda that Hamilton was at fault. There have been a few occasions where the world champion has been a bit brutal with Rosberg, who on this occasion held his own.

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Re: FORMULA 1 - GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2016

Post by Rodzilla on Wed 18 May - 20:20:55

lewis hamilton has run off rosberg a few times, for example the last lap of the hungarian gp 2014 which led to rosberg having enough at the next race at spa

my theory is hamilton is jealous of all the rosberg success and was going to kamikaze him no mater what once he took the lead

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